FM synthesis

From helpful tips to frustrating problems, this is the place.

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Luc Henrion
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Post by Luc Henrion »

hum... while the concept itself is close to a DX7 (6 oscillators), the way to program is very different. The main difference is that the modulators (LFO's, Envelopes) are freely assignable. You have 32 of them, fine. The drawback is that you have to create ("add") a new modulator each time you need one, whereas the DX7 had for example an LFO and a pair of envelopes permanently attached to each oscillator. More freedom but more headaches... OK, maybe not to this point but it's rather difficult to draw a chart where everything can be moved everywhere...

There are also other differences like the "pitch" versus "ratio" of the oscillators, and so on. See my other post:
http://www.promusicproducts.com/forum/p ... ight=pitch

In fact, on the Fusion, you have to re-learn how to program FM...
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Post by dalekay »

thanks for the link.. hum, looks like it's going to be a long road working with the Fusion for FM...

dale
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Luc Henrion
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Post by Luc Henrion »

yes, but that's the fun !
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GuyDenruyter
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Post by GuyDenruyter »

and we all hope that this pitch-ratio issue will be addessed (as an option) in the next OS :)

After all, it's just a way of displaying values.
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Post by dalekay »

Well maybe we should start a sticky topic for FM to keep up on what has been found, figured out, useful tips and hints.

It's a rather cool thing to have in the synth but not used by most at all.

I use FM not only for patches but to build up landscapes so to speak.. but again, not eveyone's cup of tea.

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lesmizz
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Post by lesmizz »

dalekay wrote:I use FM not only for patches but to build up landscapes so to speak.. dale
I used my FS1R for this type of stuff. You could get huge evolving "clouds" of sound that took 5 minutes to fully blossom into the final sound. Way cool.

Wouldn't mind hearing an example of what you're doing!

What's the max EG time and max LFO time on the Fusion? A enhancement request for "extra long mode" (at least several minutes cycle time) might be in store! My Modcan Dual LFO has a max cycle time of over an hour and 30 minutes!
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Post by gwenhwyfaer »

GuyDenruyter wrote:and we all hope that this pitch-ratio issue will be addessed (as an option) in the next OS :)

After all, it's just a way of displaying values.
In fairness, it's a bit more than that, and that's why I want it addressed; you just can't get an exact multiple that isn't a power of 2 with the current scheme.
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Post by gwenhwyfaer »

dalekay wrote:I use FM not only for patches but to build up landscapes so to speak.. but again, not eveyone's cup of tea.
Then you might enjoy the fact that FM can be used between the sampled oscillators too... :)
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Post by gwenhwyfaer »

After spending a few minutes having a serendipitous fiddle with the FM side of the Fusion (again), it seems to me to be an awful lot warmer-sounding than the traditional Yamaha implementations... is that just me misremembering what my V50 sounds like, or have other people observed it too? I don't know whether it's that the Fusion interpolates its oscillators (the Yamahas didn't - indeed, if you look at the DX7's implementation, it's amazing it sounded as good as it did, the number of approximations and quantisations in it), or the higher-resolution envelopes or finer (and linear) modulation levels, or whether it's something else... but the end result seems somehow warmer, swirlier, more "analogue" than the DX range seemed to be... and this is with the filter bypassed, so there's no low-passy goodness being added there.

As I say, it could just be my cloth ears :) so it'd be nice to know if other people have, or haven't noticed the same thing.
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Post by Analoguesque »

The FM part of the Fusion is very powerful, and with the power comes complexity. It is far easier IMHO to create a sound on a Yamaha SY77 or TX81-Z than it is on the Fusion. It's also a lot quicker to generate a bunch of sounds based on your initial sound, since the older Yamaha FM synths allow you to simply select a different algorithm. With one selection you could get a completely different sound, or something "based" on your original sound.

If a software editor is ever released (please, please, please :) ) for the Fusion, this same stuff could be done and we could have the best of both the Yamaha and Fusion FM worlds.
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Post by GuyDenruyter »

Maybe it would be a good idea to create some program templates to correspond with the DX-7 algorithms.

If each of us FM-fans creates one, and we exchange these, it's a little shared effort.
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mstsfreak Netherlands
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Post by mstsfreak »

GuyDenruyter wrote:Maybe it would be a good idea to create some program templates to correspond with the DX-7 algorithms.

If each of us FM-fans creates one, and we exchange these, it's a little shared effort.

This is a very good idea of course!! So then it is possible to recreate the DX7-sounds much easier.

When i recieve my Fusion, i will try to program the 8 algorithms of my beloved Yamaha V-50. So that also 4-op fm freaks can use these.

I am a BIG FM-fan, just figuring out how it works. I think it's very interesting!!
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Post by gwenhwyfaer »

Yay, someone else with a beloved V50! :)

I must admit, until I got the Fusion, the V50 was the synth I turned back to programming more often than the rest - making FM do what I told it to was a challenge, in a good way :) and lovely punchy bass sounds just seem to fall out of it without really trying. Also, the V50 allows operator frequencies to be set to 0 - which when you use it in a carrier gives waveshaping... handy for adding a bit of extra crunch to a sound. (I mention that because as far as I can see, the Fusion doesn't...) And a couple of its ensemble presets put paid to the myth that FM can't sound warm and lush, too :)

It's occurred to me that it wouldn't take too much effort to rustle up the 32 DX7 (and 8 DX9) algorithms as starter presets, but even then things won't necessarily be that simple - the Fusion's EGs can emulate the DX21's perfectly, but can't come close to the 4-stage DX7 envelopes; and the DX range all had fairly preset modulation routes - each operator has its own envelope, velocity sensitivity, level scaling, rate scaling, and LFO amplitude modulation; that alone takes up 30 modulation routes for a 6-op patch and we only have 32 available! So it might be a better idea to simply approach Fusion programming in a different way, especially since the fewer operators you use, the more polyphony you get; the name of the game has to be optimisation - only adding an extra operator, an extra modulation route, whatever, if and when you have to... as opposed to the DX, where all of the complexity is there whether you use it or not. For voices with a lot of commonality, the Fusion could well be a lot easier to program (only a couple of envelopes to worry about); for the more complex voices, where every operator is off doing its own thing, responding to all manner of control inputs in its own way... some of them might not even be replicable on the Fusion.

And of course, the Fusion has a rather cool filter tacked on the end. The DX never had one of those :)
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GuyDenruyter
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Post by GuyDenruyter »

gwenhwyfaer wrote:Yay, someone else with a beloved V50! :)

I must admit, until I got the Fusion, the V50 was the synth I turned back to programming more often than the rest - making FM do what I told it to was a challenge, in a good way :) and lovely punchy bass sounds just seem to fall out of it without really trying. Also, the V50 allows operator frequencies to be set to 0 - which when you use it in a carrier gives waveshaping... handy for adding a bit of extra crunch to a sound. (I mention that because as far as I can see, the Fusion doesn't...) And a couple of its ensemble presets put paid to the myth that FM can't sound warm and lush, too :)

It's occurred to me that it wouldn't take too much effort to rustle up the 32 DX7 (and 8 DX9) algorithms as starter presets, but even then things won't necessarily be that simple - the Fusion's EGs can emulate the DX21's perfectly, but can't come close to the 4-stage DX7 envelopes; and the DX range all had fairly preset modulation routes - each operator has its own envelope, velocity sensitivity, level scaling, rate scaling, and LFO amplitude modulation; that alone takes up 30 modulation routes for a 6-op patch and we only have 32 available! So it might be a better idea to simply approach Fusion programming in a different way, especially since the fewer operators you use, the more polyphony you get; the name of the game has to be optimisation - only adding an extra operator, an extra modulation route, whatever, if and when you have to... as opposed to the DX, where all of the complexity is there whether you use it or not. For voices with a lot of commonality, the Fusion could well be a lot easier to program (only a couple of envelopes to worry about); for the more complex voices, where every operator is off doing its own thing, responding to all manner of control inputs in its own way... some of them might not even be replicable on the Fusion.

And of course, the Fusion has a rather cool filter tacked on the end. The DX never had one of those :)
You are absolutely right. The fact that the envelopes cannot be emulated is one thing, but more important is what you mentioned about polyphone - I overlooked this. I propose that, instead of just starting to create templates on the fly, we should maybe first discuss about an optimised 'architecture' which somehow compromises between functionality and polyphony, and also taking advantage of the filters we have at the end of the chain. If we then more or less agree, we can split the work to actually implement these templates?
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Jokeyman123 United States of America
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Re: FM synthesis

Post by Jokeyman123 »

Apparently I have revived here a "zombie" post about Fusion's FM architecture for some of you that may be newer to the Fusion. Finding these posts from 2006, apparently this entire approach, by some of the original braintrust who first explored the Fusion-look at the posts, you will see these names appear most frequently in terms of detailing the Fusion's capabilities back when-seems to have not gone any further, at least here in this group of posts. It is pretty impressive that, after all those years ago, there are still some like me in 2024 that continue to want to experiment with the sonic power in this landmark dinosaur instrument. Yes, the FM implementation in the Fusion is certainly challenging, more difficult than the original Yamaha architecture. Apparently it took 100 engineers and 7 years at Yamaha just to fully develop the original DX7! Now that was challenging....

https://hub.yamaha.com/keyboards/synthe ... remembers/
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