Hidden sounds beyond P8?

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Maax555
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Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Maax555 »

Hi all, I have read that its possible to have sounds in the Fusion that cannot be accessed in the normal way of entering category and number?
As there seems to be documents to cover most things Fusion, are there any that document this and explain how to tell if you have possible hidden gems and how to recall them?
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by parametric »

Hmm . . . .

I never really found the <Category> feature particularly useful. The problem being that with the possibility of 100s of Banks and therefore

1000s of programs - it starts to become an endless task deciding WHICH category a particular program belongs to.

AFAIK - a program HAS to have ONE category - though it CAN have <alternative> categories as well.

OK, with Pianos of various types <Pianos> is obvious, but some of the wilder programs, it can get difficult deciding how to describe them . . ?

Given that all programs/mixes have ONE category - I don't think it's possible to have a program that "can't be found"?

ALL the programs on the HD can be viewed via the <locate> <inc> buttons - and using the Data wheel.

You have to actually <select> them to audition them.

This is also fine for the MovinPro Bank which exceeds the 128 programs per Bank limit.

If you are selecting programs via midi though, there is a problem. Midi only supports up to 128 programs per Bank.

Program 129 onwards can't be selected by midi - hence the discussion elsewhere to split MovinPro to several Banks of 128 or less . . .

I personally DO use the alphanumeric IDs to make a note of programs I have used in <Song> mode, just in case they get scrambled.

This allows you to define ONE actual program accurately - in case it gets "lost" if you get involved editing the HD directly . . .

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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by hadley »

That functionality in the Fusion for 'category' and 'favourites' is just not necessary in a synth where we can create as many program banks as we want, and name them whatever we want.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by kpr »

Chris,

true, the categories for sounds have become a bit more since the General MIDI list. I once offered this in a sampling workshop, to expand it like this

Pianos
Electric Pianos
Clavi Type
Keyboards
Organ
Chromatic Percussion, Idiophonics
Accordion, Harmonica
Acoustic Guitar
Electric Guitar
Plucked Instruments
Acoustic Bass
Electric Bass
Synth Bass
Strings (Solo, Section)
Orchestrals
Choir, Vocals
Brass (Solo, Section)
Reed
Pipe
Woodwind
Synth Lead
Synth Pad
Synth Percussive
Synth Layer
Drums, Percussion
Loops
Special Sound Effects
Soundscapes

Certainly it depends on what styles someone puts their music in, so you can take that as a starting point and add other sub-categories. With Fusion, they didn't think that far ahead and so there is no renaming function or an "add new category".
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by parametric »

kpr wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:16 pm Chris,

true, the categories for sounds have become a bit more since the General MIDI list. I once offered this in a sampling workshop, to expand it like this

Pianos
Electric Pianos
Clavi Type
Keyboards
Organ
Chromatic Percussion, Idiophonics
Accordion, Harmonica
Acoustic Guitar
Electric Guitar
Plucked Instruments
Acoustic Bass
Electric Bass
Synth Bass
Strings (Solo, Section)
Orchestrals
Choir, Vocals
Brass (Solo, Section)
Reed
Pipe
Woodwind
Synth Lead
Synth Pad
Synth Percussive
Synth Layer
Drums, Percussion
Loops
Special Sound Effects
Soundscapes

Certainly it depends on what styles someone puts their music in, so you can take that as a starting point and add other sub-categories. With Fusion, they didn't think that far ahead and so there is no renaming function or an "add new category".
THAT is indeed more expansive than the GM List. I'm sure I recognise some of them from your many "offerings" for the Fusion ;)

I think it's fair to say that many can live in alternate categories, as well . . .

The various Pianos could live in <Keyboards> . . . Organ, could live in <Keyboard> or <Pipe> (since some USE Pipes?)

Accordian is weird - as it uses wind from it's bellows - not sure about how the sound is made . . .Pipes or "thin metal tines"?

Plus, it is a keyboard as well . . . .

Harmonica, I guess is it's OWN category, but could be <Wind>, but using thin metal tines to make the sound . . .?

All Guitars could be <Plucked>, along with the Orchestral/Celtic Harp, (Pizz. strings could live here too?)

Pipes - I'm thinking Shakuhachi(?) Pan Pipes . . How about Bagpipes?

Chromatic Percussion - I'm thinking Xylophones, Marimbas, Glockenspiels, Vibraphones . . These could be called <Mallets> possibly?

Celeste is keyboard though, - is it not?

Lumping <Solo> and <Section> together is handy, and indeed the Orchestral sections are well understood and sort themselves out well.

It's a great topic for discussion, that would probably benefit from the consumption of a reasonable amount of BEER . . . . :dance:

Chris
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Maax555 »

hadley wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:20 am That functionality in the Fusion for 'category' and 'favourites' is just not necessary in a synth where we can create as many program banks as we want, and name them whatever we want.
Can I ask which bank editor you are using? I really want to go through the HD sounds on my Fusion and tidy it up. I am thinking along the lines of creating a new bank for say Synth Bass, Elec Bass, Piano, PianoFX, Warm Pads, Hard Pads Etc. In my head the best way for me to achive this would be to have two banks open on the PC at a time. One would be my new bank and the other an existing bank which I would copy across the patches I wanted to keep and then simply remove the bank from the fusion. I would do this with all the Fusion HD banks and end up with a library system more akin to what I am used to seeing in my VST libraries. Is this possible, is there a better way of doing it? It wouldnt be so bad if the patches were only in one folder location but a lot of them are in sample, multisample and program. If i was doing this manually without software would i need to go into each folder and drag over each of the patches from the 3 different folders. Also what about the bank text file, would I need to type in all the patch names etc? No doubt there will be a very good document on here somewhere which will be of help. I will have a look when i get home (im at work :-( )
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Jokeyman123 »

Maax,

There are 2 programs you might want to install and look over-Fusion Sort and JMD's Fusion Bank Maker. Keep in mind-you need to study the file structure of the Fusion befoe you move anything anywhere. The separated folders are there for a reason. Each one is connected to another. There are many posts here already about this-and a pdf. diagram showing how this works, thanks to Jesse. I added these as attachments to this post. It's VERY IMPORTANT to understand how this file/folder structure works before you move anything, otherwise it may seem to you that the Fusion is malfunctioning, when in fact it is working as it was designed to. Uses the same structure used by Windows for files, folders etc.

I don't want to go into alot of detail-but for example-a "program" if it is sample based-will need to find the samples its based upon in that sample folder-and multisamples are also made up of samples-so if you start moving things around-without understanding which samples are being used by which programs-you will get messages to that effect-"can't find foobar sample needed for foobar program".

Another factoid-when you start loading Fusion libraries of programs from Hollow Sun, KPR, programs from anywhere-do not change the names of the file folders-and if you are doing this "manually" make sure that all those folders reside in the "master" folder which must be labelled as your "volume" folder-identically to the master volume folder you see in your computer when you connect the Fusion through the USB port. In other words-you must load the volume folder for your new porgrams/multis/samples right "over" the Fusion's existing volume folder. If you don't, you will have a huge mess. My recommendation-study over every post you can find here to thoroughly understand-this file/folder structure is the basis for everything you need to know to keep all you programs/multis/samples organized and working correctly in the Fusion. If you don't understand this-you can create a huge kerfuffle for yourself, and think your Fusion is "broken".
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Maax555 »

Guys, yet again many thanks for all the trouble you take to help out us newbies. I am pretty sure that without this forum I would have given up on the Fusion already.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by kpr »

Chris, actually this list was just meant as an orientation from me. Alesis had oriented itself with the Fusion like other manufacturers also at the General MIDI sound list. I had then expanded in an Amazona workshop, because the readership also has musicians who use rather only synth sounds and loops, mostly musicians who are not pianists. The origin of the GM sound list can be found in encyclopedias for musical instruments and these are great tree structures that first roughly distinguish between idiophones, membranophones etc. and then form subgroups. You don't have to stick to it, it's up to you and the Others group in Fusion is probably meant for that.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by hadley »

Maax555 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:01 pm Can I ask which bank editor you are using? I really want to go through the HD sounds on my Fusion and tidy it up....
I just connect using USB and clean things up directly on the hard disk. But you have to understand how songs and mixes reference programs, and how programs reference samples, before you can do this. If you move your mixes and songs around, it's safe. If you move your programs around you have to fix the references in mixes and songs. If you move samples around you will have real trouble.

I always had in mind to write an open-source cross-platform librarian tool but I never got around to it (yet). There are some programs around but I think they are only for MS Windows.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Maax555 »

There seem to be two pieces of software to move stuff around. However the problem is the Fusion needs to be connected via USB which .eans you can't audition the sounds before moving or deleting them. I tried to run one of the software without connecting to the Fusion. I opened banks in the software and then opened same banks in the Fusion so I could audition them. So I would swap patches I liked from the locations to a new location in the second part of the software bank. I was hoping to be able to delete several patches at once in the software but it wasn't possible. So after deleting them all one by one I moved the patches I wanted to keep back into the locations A through L for example. I then saved the bank under a new name but it didn't go as expected so gave up. I've now managed to get the thing into my loft studio which had me sweating a bit. Hooked it up but there is a lot of noise coming through the interface. I think this is possibly due to using a code of cheap guitar cables as I dint have any spare TRS ones.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by hadley »

Maax555 wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:54 pm There seem to be two pieces of software to move stuff around. However the problem is the Fusion needs to be connected via USB which means you can't audition the sounds before moving or deleting them...
I believe the best achievable is:

1 - Navigate to Global -> Settings -> Options and press SetLoc + 8 to set a UI shortcut

2 - Uncheck the "USB Enable" checkbox, and then connect the Fusion to your computer with USB

3 - Play the Fusion, notice a sound you want to edit.

4 - Run the editor librarian (this tool needs to be written) on the computer,

5 - do some edits on the computer

6 - On the fusion, press Locate + 8, then turn on "USB Enable". At this point,

- the computer will take over the Fusion,

- the editor/librarian will recognize that the Fusion is now connected, and will push the edits to the Fusion,

- the editor/librarian will correctly clean the banks.txt files (so that the user never needs to do that manual verification step on the Fusion)

- the editor/librarian will release the Fusion (a software USB unplug event)

7 - The user now can uncheck the "USB enable" (ready for next time) and audition his edits on the Fusion. The USB cable can stay plugged in, ready for the next edit.

8 Repeat from step 5.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Jokeyman123 »

Hadley-what editor/librarian are using for editing the Fusion sounds on your computer?
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by hadley »

Jokeyman123 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:33 pm Hadley-what editor/librarian are using for editing the Fusion sounds on your computer?
I have only done tiny edits to sounds, using either a hex editor or alliance hd. There was one parameter I needed to set to a value higher than what was permitted in the Fusion UI.

For 'librarian' i do it all manually using bash and rsync.
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Re: Hidden sounds beyond P8?

Post by Jesse »

I would advise you to backup your Fusion Hard Drive before Editing everything on the Fusion Hard Drive :)
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