Improving the Holy Grail Piano

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synth9999
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Holy Grail Sample Glitch?

Post by synth9999 »

I just bought a fusion 8 hd tonight and hear an annoying overtone in the holy grail piano multi sample between F#2 and A3 in the lower octave. The overtone almost sounds like a dissonant upper key in the sample and is very noticeable at even moderate velocities. It does not affect any other sound, only the HG piano. Any others experience this issue?
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EXer
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Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by EXer »

I have finally found MY holy grail piano.
___

As I said before, I was never satisfied with the Holy Grail Piano preset.

EQ-ing it like described in this document
Jesse wrote:You might also like these settings to Tweak the Holy Grail Piano by one of our fellow Fusion owners/users
http://www.alesismusic.com/viewtopic.ph ... php?id=362

gives it a significant improvement, but I was still not satisfied.
___

Then, suddenly, I understood what was wrong: it's all in the envelopes :idea:

Starting from the "Tweaked HG Piano" (see above) I edited 2 parameters (a small step for the synthesist but a giant step for the pianist):

Envelope 1-(Volume):

set Sustain decay = 26.494 sec (instead of the 22.673 default value)
set Release = 180.237 ms (instead of the 122.016 default value)

et voilà, vous avez un meilleur piano !
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by Jesse »

Tweaking the Holy Grail Piano Parts 1 & 2
Tweaking the Holy Grail Piano parts 1 & 2.pdf
Tweaking the Holy Grail Piano parts 1 & 2
(466.33 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
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Holy Grail piano out of tune?

Post by EXer »

To me the HG piano sounds out of tune.

Try and play these octaves:
(C3 = middle C)
G0-G1
C1-C2
G1-G2
C2-C3
G2-G3
So far, so good.

From now on, things start going wrong:

C3-C4 and D3-D4 sound slightly weird
E3-E4 is fine
F3-F4 sounds a bit out of tune
G3-G4 is the worst; it sounds substantially out of tune (it almost makes my ears bleed!)

From B3-B4 on the octaves sound in tune again.

Then, to confirm those 1st impressions, play G-G octaves:
G0-G1 ok
G1-G2 ok
G2-G3 ok
G3-G4 out of tune
G4-G5 ok

► Yet when I compare each of those individual notes to the same notes played on another synth it appears that in fact they *are* in tune.

So, what’s going on?

What I believe is that the samples of the HG piano have been recorded from a piano which was tuned according to a stretched tuning (like most of the pianos are). In stretched tuning, octaves in the lower and in the higher registers are tuned slightly wider than the harmonic 2:1 ratio to compensate for inharmonicity (i.e. the frequencies of overtones depart from whole multiples of the fundamental frequency, due to the physical characteristics of the strings).

Then, before being put into the Fusion ROM the pitches of those samples have been adjusted so that their fundamental frequencies follow the 2:1 ratios strictly, thus resulting in their overtones sounding out of tune.

Please let me know what *you* think.
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Re: Holy Grail piano out of tune?

Post by Jesse »

Wish I could help you with that exer, but I don't have a very good ear :(

If I am able to get my grandson to listen to it he might be able to tell, he plays piano by ear :)

Take Care ... Jesse
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Re: Holy Grail piano out of tune?

Post by parametric »

EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pm To me the HG piano sounds out of tune.
I concur to a degree . . . . . :wink:
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmTry and play these octaves:
(C3 = middle C)
G0-G1
C1-C2
G1-G2
C2-C3
G2-G3
So far, so good.
Those sound OK to me . . . .
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmFrom now on, things start going wrong:

C3-C4 and D3-D4 sound slightly weird
Those sound OK to me
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmE3-E4 is fine
Agreed.
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmF3-F4 sounds a bit out of tune
Yes, I can hear slight "ringing" . . . .
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmG3-G4 is the worst; it sounds substantially out of tune (it almost makes my ears bleed!)
Yes, pronounced "ringing"
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmFrom B3-B4 on the octaves sound in tune again.

Then, to confirm those 1st impressions, play G-G octaves:
G0-G1 ok
G1-G2 ok
G2-G3 ok
G3-G4 out of tune
G4-G5 ok
Yeah, G3-G4 is a bit strange . . .
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pm► Yet when I compare each of those individual notes to the same notes played on another synth it appears that in fact they *are* in tune.
I didn't actually try this, but I will say that MOST of my use of the HG Piano is WITH other instruments - I only have ONE piece where the HG is "exposed" in places . . . I used the HG together with the StereoPiano and Strings from ROM Preset2, and mixed between to two . . .

Here:
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmSo, what’s going on?

What I believe is that the samples of the HG piano have been recorded from a piano which was tuned according to a stretched tuning (like most of the pianos are). In stretched tuning, octaves in the lower and in the higher registers are tuned slightly wider than the harmonic 2:1 ratio to compensate for inharmonicity (i.e. the frequencies of overtones depart from whole multiples of the fundamental frequency, due to the physical characteristics of the strings).

Then, before being put into the Fusion ROM the pitches of those samples have been adjusted so that their fundamental frequencies follow the 2:1 ratios strictly, thus resulting in their overtones sounding out of tune.

Please let me know what *you* think.

Hard to say. It's not an area I know much about . . .but I understand in principle what you are saying . . .

I think Q-up Arts have a good enough name, so this little annoyance ought not to have slipped through?

There ARE some issues . . . you are NOT imagining it . . . :wink:

parametric
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Re: Holy Grail piano out of tune?

Post by EXer »

Thanks for your answers.
_______________

Special thanks to parametric for taking the time to make a test:
parametric wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 am
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmG3-G4 is the worst; it sounds substantially out of tune (it almost makes my ears bleed!)
Yes, pronounced "ringing"
EXer wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:53 pmThen, to confirm those 1st impressions, play G-G octaves:
G0-G1 ok
G1-G2 ok
G2-G3 ok
G3-G4 out of tune
G4-G5 ok
Yeah, G3-G4 is a bit strange . . .
Now I know I'm not completely deaf or insane...
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by Jesse »

I linked three different topics about the Holy Grail Piano into one "Improving the Holy Grail Piano"

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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by EXer »

Thanks to all who keep this forum alive Image
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by Jokeyman123 »

Jesse-I just tried downloading the Holy Grail piano 1 & 2 pdf and it is coming up blank. Is it possible this needs to be re-posted or is something wrong with my pdf reader-I use foxit Reader Pro-a little less "bloated than Adobe's version and a little less complex to use and edit.I have the Holy Grail part one file I found somewhere here or on the Proboards Alesis group, but I've not found this one. Thanks.
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by Jesse »

I tried to download it and it was no good so I deleted it and uploaded it again, looks like it is good now :)
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by Jokeyman123 »

Thanks Jesse. Got it.
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by kpr »

About Piano tuning:



And when you record a piano for samples, that's a whole other story. Also one with some disadvantages that can't be corrected later. Who has gold ears, is certainly well served with Pianoteq, in the Pro version you can do yourself, with very many details. I still find the HolyGrail quite successful. Here is a small piece of me with solo piano HG.



I mean that the HG piano is pretty ok for such purposes.
Rock´n Roll is music, not driving instructions.
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Re: Improving the Holy Grail Piano

Post by Jokeyman123 »

There is a reason piano concertos are written that way. And why I never play chords if the guitarist is, and never play melodies if the guitarist is!!!! I cannot think of another instrument that is tuned the same way as a piano. maybe a drumkit :lol: :roll: Woodwinds have to lip up and down-brass have to adjust their slides-and none of these are tuned to an even tempered scale-unless the player adjusts his/her playing to play that way. Arranging 101-keep these people separate from each other! And let's not talk about intonation-I told you not to talk about intonation!!! I worked-briefly-and as a drummer with a piano/organ duo with someone who had perfect pitch. This guy could literally not play with other musicians, it was painful for him to hear the differences in pitches with other instruments-I was a drummer, so he was willing to work with me... :dance: :lol:
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